This week I discuss the differences between professional and amateur woodworkers and the “romanticizing” of woodworking. Also, I coin another new woodworking phrase: “sawdusty goodness.”
Incidentally, check out the new feature in the sidebar on the right-hand side of the blog. I am maintaining a list of all the new woodworking related words and phrases that I create. What can I say? It’s my one contribution to the craft.
I can honestly say that college did a piss poor job of preparing me for what the job market was going to be like in biotech. But whether its woodworking schools, or 4 year colleges and universities, a certain amount of disillusionment just comes with the territory.
So on the hobby/pro thing, do you think a hobbyist turned pro has the potential to enjoy the best of both worlds? Maybe?
Hi Marc,
Absolutely. I think a hobbyist turned pro definitely has the potential to enjoy both worlds. It depends on the person, though. I think that the successful folks that make that jump are the ones that are able to retrain themselves to work fast. Doing that is probably harder than it sounds. I don’t think everyone is capable of that, especially if working at a slow pace or puttering was the one thing that made the hobby enjoyable for them.
This is the path that you followed, correct? What is your take on this?
Dave
Well, I would say that was my biggest obstacle when I made the switch. I had no idea how to utilize a full 8-10 hour day (as a woodworker). I would see a simple cabinet with doors as a representation of 3-4 weeks of work. But my brain wasn’t counting days, it was counting nights and weekends. lol.
Because of this slow period, I had to go to work for a refinisher/custom builder. And that, more than anything, taught me how to utilize my time. The odd thing is that it was by no means a physical thing. It was purely psychological. But once the barrier was broken, it was broken for good. Things were a whole lot easier after that.
But now my viewpoint is completely skewed because I have a woodworker identity crisis. lol. I don’t know whether I’m a hobbyist, a pro, a hobbyist turned pro turned back to hobbyist, or maybe I’m just pretending to be a woodworker on my show. lol
Although meandering, great podcast Dave!:D
I’m lucky enough to be in a job that is great fun and pays well (Energy Efficiency). And yes Marc, I know you think it’s boring! What’s so great about my situation is that I get to stay a hobbiest until I retire from my day job. It will allow me to venture into what I want to achieve and not worry about a return. If I can periodically sell a piece or do a custom built-in or cabinets, I get to put 100% of any profit back into my shop. The day to day living is taken care of. Although I never want to “have to” make a living as a woodworker, I wouldn’t mind positioning myself to make a decent retirement income.
As far as the disillusionment of college, it’s the reason I ended up quitting. I had already been part of running a business and made the mistake of taking business courses. Talk about romanticizing and giving misinformation! It was obvious none of my profs had ventured into the “real” world, except my Econ prof (Cool dude). Luckily, things turn out well for me and I didn’t suffer the lack of a degree.
Dave…tangents are what make podcasts so wonderful! With a traditional blog it’s easy to correct them, but with a podcast the listener get’s a better idea of what you’re really thinking as you’re recording.
Of course my tangents often make the shows sound more like variety shows than single topics. I guess that makes me a “tangentyful” host??
Disillusionment, the true gift of education in any field. Don’t even get me started on my wake up call in the medical field.
I don’t have much to say about the hobbyist turned pro, other than there are a lot of days that the dream keeps me awake and hopeful.
But I do want to comment on the amount of time spent by the hobbyist “arranging” their shop. I only wish I spent about 70% of my shop time “arranging”. I think with every project I’ve ever worked on, my mind somehow is convinced that there’s a better arrangement. So once I complete the project, the rearranging begins!
Luckily, lately it’s just been rearranging little things like the pegboard. No more moving stationary tools…as often.
Thanks for the thoughts now running through my head!
Hi Dave:
Yep…………you are “tangentiful” (footnote Matt above) but like you say, “it’s my microphone”.
That’s an interesting thought about Pro and Hobbiest getting together. In a way the internet should allow that to happen, and on some level it does, but not as well as it should, for some reason many discussions just turn ugly. It gets so defense on both sides. And the manufacturer moves on. No time for BS. On the positive side of that relationship, I’ve pulled all my “good” hand tools out, moved from oil stones to waterstones purely from listening to Matt’s Basement WorkShop. He’s aware of his impact on me. And I like that.
You are right about the shops, especially storage, man the hobbiest has a “jones” for the best storage. I just got done with doors and drawers for a router table that I’ve been using since January, had duck-tape on one of the dust ports, top was clamped down, cord from the router running out the front, looked like hell but worked great. I new I had drawer cases coming up and working that effieciency angle you mentioned, when I set-up for drawers on that job I included the router table. Still the hobbiest would have his grains matching on his/her router tables and I used plywood cut-offs no matter what grain direction. Don’t get me wrong, I like the function of my router table but totally respect the aesthetics of the hobbiest table.
Dave…….I have many thoughts on your topic, including why getting hobbiest and pro’s would be frustrating, to name just one, but presently…………. here’s where I’m currently disillusioned. It involves the use of the internet in woodworking and that is the lack of building. No matter what level, woodworking is about building your skill-set and to this point, I’m disillusioned by the lack of building that is being accomplished by using the internet. Seems like the perfect tool that hasn’t quite found its legs yet.
Neil
Hi Dave,
It’s me again…sorry for double dipping on the comments, but I was thinking about the idea of why hobbyist seem to be always changing up their shops (especially since I’m a self admitted shop changer-upper).
I think it has a lot to do with the hobbyist not understanding the difference between speed and efficiency. Both are two very different creatures, but in an era of 1/2 hour furniture construction (that’s about how long it takes our favorite TV woodworkers to build anything and finish them by hand too) we assume that the only way to be as good, is to constantly play with our work stations in the hopes it will improve our work flow.
Instead, as Neil has pointed out, beginners and everyone else should be thinking more about skill building. Once you’ve established the basic skills, the work flow just comes.
Hi Matt,
I agree with what you said to some extent; I know I’m always changing things around in a never-ending quest for better efficiency. But I also think hobbyists change up their shops simply because it’s fun. Putting together a shop is a big part of the hobby. For some folks, it IS the hobby. That’s why we spend so much time researching shop design, as well.
These two ideas aren’t mutually exclusive. The challenge of creating the “perfect” and “most efficient” shop is what is so much fun. And then we can show it off on the internet forums.
The irony is, though, that there is no such thing as a “perfect” shop.
Dave
Hey Dave:
……….that’s the point, you’ll never know it’s the perfect shop (to you) unless your working it. That means:
Matt:
beginners and everyone else should be thinking more about skill building. Once you’ve established the basic skills, the work flow just comes.
to add to Matt’s thought…..as your skill-set expands by building, your shop evolves ie: learning a new technique, needing a different assembly area, new tooling, longer extension cords, new tool storage but you only know this by working your shop which means building stuff……….then you’ve proven your statement,…. that there is no such thing as a “perfect” shop.
Take Vic for instance he has a solid basic layout for his new shop, but he really won’t know how well his layout performs until he’s pushing material, assembling, and works the floor space………..he probably spent hours figuring out his work flow, but the best thing he did was to leave himself with future options by loading up on electrical outlets.
Anyway…..build-build-build……….Neil
And Neil, I’m already wondering if the 10 feet on the left of my tablesaw will be enough. I really liked being able to lay that 12 foot shelving on the slider and push it through. But I have to remind myself, once set up, basic cuts to length are a different operation, different work station.
Dave, again, really great post. You always manage to hit topics that bring discussion. Even though I’m a hobbiest and plan to stay that way until I have a good portfolio built, I love that there are pros like Neil that do teach efficiency and building around your tooling. I have no desire to build sidewalk style pieces. When professionals see my work and
wonder how I did this or admire a design, I’ll be getting closer to where I want to be. Admittedly, I’m green (only a strong construction background), but I’m passionate about design and “perfection”.
[...] was just reading the comment thread to Episode 12 of at ModernWoodshop.com. A very interesting discussion was taking place. I was compelled to reply [...]
Dave, I’m a first time reader of your blog, but probably not last time – got here through Marc-TWW. Anyhow, thanks for posting these thoughts; it really has me thinking about what I want out of my woodworking hobby.
I’d like to offer an alternate definition to separate Pro and Hobbyist woodworkers, building on the ideas in the podcast. You are a “Pro Woodworker” if your primary objective for working with wood is NOT to further your tool inventory. Anyone else is a hobbyist.
Definitions like this are supposed to be applied only when someone is in a gray area – not when somebody, by anyone’s reasonable definition, falls squarely in either camp (e.g. if you earn a salary by working wood, or conversely if you have never been paid for any single piece you made).
To me, this blog entry is very exciting. It explains what I have wondered about for a while: The Hobbyists’ fussing over their workshop and plot out workshop improvements rather than building stuff (myself included). It also explains why few Pros are hand tool nuts. But admittedly, by the logic of my argument, my workshop should be a lot neater.
If I may be blasphemous, I think Neil is on the wrong track. The means to the end is “build, build, build” – only if your goal is to further your skills, earn a living, and/or end up with lots to show for your time. If you just want to surf the Internet or read 1980s back issues of FWW, that should be OK too, if that makes you happy and happiness is your objective.
I guess (bringing my argument to the extreme), can you call someone who does not ever finish a single piece of furniture a “woodworker” at all? Probably not if the definition is “a person who works with wood.” That person might be called a “woodworking enthusiast” instead. What about if you build one piece a year? What if you get a kick out of “fine woodworking” but mostly do construction or home improvement type work?
As usual, I’m not sure if my comments adds to the consensus or confusion. Actually I’m pretty sure it just adds to the confusion, but what the heck.
Dave –
I think you have a very stimulating conversation underway. Knowing woodworkers tend to be opinionated (not a bad thing!), I suspect this will become a very interesting string with widely varying viewpoints.
I think Neil’s comment was misunderstood. The Internet is a marvelous wonder. For the woodworker, hobbyist and pro alike, it is a great tool for relaxation, reference and research augmenting our personal libraries of books, magazines and DVDs. We are truly fortunate for the pros like Neil who take time out of their professional lives to teach with no remuneration. Woodworkers are really blessed in this day and age of instant cyber communication to develop not only woodworking social friendships but mentoring as well that would otherwise not be possible.
Ultimately, the more you build and experience wood and feel of a tool in your hand the more you will learn. This is no criticism to surfing the Internet for a design or technique, watching or listening to a podcast, reading a book or magazine, or watching instructional DVDs. These activities really serve to stimulate the mind and encourage the hands to execute a project in the shop. Every woodworker has experienced that moment of enlightenment when the hands on practicality of repetition and practice eventually yield to the mastery of a skill, something difficult at best to achieve in an arm chair or at a computer desk.
There are many fine sites adding to the woodworking experience. I wonder how many woodworkers Neil has sparked an interest in furniture design, efficiency in the shop, flat panel veneering or to take on the challenge of curved bent lamination vacuum pressing. Consider how many woodworkers Matt has lowered the intimidation level for picking up or refurnishing a hand plane.
An interesting experiment to follow is the Internet classroom forum project underway on The Rough Cut Show. With the guidance of Thomas MacDonald (aka T-Chisel) and North Benett Street School student Eli Cleveland, the forum is collectively building a “Crazy Leg Federal Table”. The sole purpose of this project, as Thomas points out, “is strictly a learning tool for making cool Federal Style embellishments”. I believe the Federal Table project is a groundbreaking woodworking experiment representing an exciting melding of teaching and practical learning delivered by the reach of the Internet.
So, the phrase “less type type, more chop chop” might not be such bad advice after all!
Dave –
A very interesting thread developing! I know woodworkers are a passionate and opinionated lot so this will have many enlightening view points expressed.
I think Neil’s comment has been misunderstood. The Internet is a marvelous wonder. For the woodworker, hobbyist and pro alike, it is a great tool for relaxation, reference and research augmenting our personal libraries of books, magazines and DVDs. We are truly fortunate for the pros like Neil who take time out of their professional lives to teach with no remuneration. Woodworkers are blessed in this age of instant cyber communication to develop woodworking social friendships and mentoring that would otherwise not be possible.
Ultimately, the more you build and experience wood and the feel of a tool in your hand the more you will learn. This is no criticism to surfing the Internet for a design or technique, watching or listening to a podcast, reading a book or magazine, or watching instructional DVDs. These activities really serve to stimulate the mind and encourage the execution of a project in the shop. Every woodworker has experienced that moment of enlightenment when the hands on practicality of repetition and practice eventually yield to the mastery of a skill.
There are many fine sites adding to the woodworking experience. I wonder how many woodworkers Neil has sparked an interest in furniture design, efficiency in the shop, flat panel veneering or to take on the challenge of curved bent lamination vacuum pressing. Consider how many woodworkers Matt has lowered the intimidation level for picking up, tuning or refurnishing a hand plane.
An interesting experiment to follow is the Internet classroom forum project underway on The Rough Cut Show. With the guidance of Thomas MacDonald (aka T-Chisel) and North Benett Street School student Eli Cleveland, the forum is collectively building a “Crazy Leg Federal Table”. The sole purpose of this project, as Thomas points out, “is strictly a learning tool for making cool Federal Style embellishments”. I believe the Federal Table project is a groundbreaking woodworking experiment representing an exciting melding of teaching and practical learning delivered by the reach of the Internet.
So, the phrase “less type type, more chop chop” might not be such bad advice after all!
Dave -
I apologize for the double post. It was late at night and I was tired after a long trip and I felt compelled to weigh in on the discussion. Please feel free to remove one of my double entries!
Keep up the good work!
David
Dave,
A wonderful thing has happened as a direct result of your podcast – DISCUSSION! Well, maybe it is not good from a shop-time standpoint, as it is keeping so many people away from the shop
.
I totally agree with the many (several?) that support the concept that shop time is THE most valuable thing we can get, so that we can get better at what we do.
Take my case, for example.
I built a new shop, got a bunch of machines after some research and cost comparisons (not “THE best ones”), and started out with a layout I *thought* would be ideal. This ideal layout was based on the work triangle concept, watching woodworking TV shows, etc. And a lot of reading.
To this day I still have DC stuff on the floor. Why? Because the initial, *Ideal* layout did not work. Shop dimensions, lumber, etc., etc., collaborated to make me change my initial ideal layout several times. And many times I worked on projects while the shop layout was still in transition.
Where am I going with all this? Exactly to where Neil left off:
Without getting into the shop and doing real work, I believe it would have taken much longer to figure out the PROCESS AND WORK FLOW that results in more efficient work FOR ME. And only for ME. Would I have eventually gotten here, given enough time? Sure. Maybe in 30 years.
Now, although I made up my mind that this past Winter I would install the permanent DC system, other stuff kept me distracted. Long story short: I did not install the DC system
. It may have to wait until next Winter…
Now, to the actual woodworking. I try to help people, whenever possible, to learn how to make inlaid dovetails with a router jig. But some time ago I struggled for several days, until I perfected it. THAT was THE key! Without trying it, I would never have gotten good at it.
So, yes, I know the meaning of chop! chop! chop! And I am thankful that I can set aside the time to do it.
My main message is this: I could have memorized, I could have had dreams about them, and actually mumbled something in my sleep related to “tails”. This would have been cause for concern to my wife, for sure. But I never would have been able to cut the dovetails on a jig without trying it over and over, until perfected, IN the shop. And I cannot cut dovetails by hand, because I have not gone chop! chop! chop! with the proper hand tools. I know I will in the near future. You will get a chance to read about my lousy attempts on my blog. I just don’t enjoy doing them by hand, period. Not yet, anyway.
The bottom line, now that I have rambled long enough: Yes, it is *crucial* to spend time in the shop, if I am to make something I am proud to display. But it IS ALSO OK to not achieve perfection, and to make things that are not masterpieces, but that are *functional*. I still remember all those years on a tight budget; cannot forget those.
How to distill all this? Maybe as follows: We are all different – it would be boring if we weren’t. But the fact remains that we still must get in the shop to make stuff if we want to apply what we watch, what we read, what we talk about on the Internet, on the phone, etc. While *doing* is important to me, it may not be to the next guy. And that is fine with me. But many of us are doing it, although, in my case, I really *should* be doing it more.
The difference, I think, boils down to how much time we can all afford to dedicate to our wonderful craft.
Oooopppss… Someone pushed me off the Pepsi box!