A wonderful thing has happened as a direct result of your podcast – DISCUSSION! Well, maybe it is not good from a shop-time standpoint, as it is keeping so many people away from the shop .

I totally agree with the many (several?) that support the concept that shop time is THE most valuable thing we can get, so that we can get better at what we do.

Take my case, for example.

I built a new shop, got a bunch of machines after some research and cost comparisons (not “THE best ones”), and started out with a layout I *thought* would be ideal. This ideal layout was based on the work triangle concept, watching woodworking TV shows, etc. And a lot of reading.

To this day I still have DC stuff on the floor. Why? Because the initial, *Ideal* layout did not work. Shop dimensions, lumber, etc., etc., collaborated to make me change my initial ideal layout several times. And many times I worked on projects while the shop layout was still in transition.

Where am I going with all this? Exactly to where Neil left off:

Without getting into the shop and doing real work, I believe it would have taken much longer to figure out the PROCESS AND WORK FLOW that results in more efficient work FOR ME. And only for ME. Would I have eventually gotten here, given enough time? Sure. Maybe in 30 years.

Now, although I made up my mind that this past Winter I would install the permanent DC system, other stuff kept me distracted. Long story short: I did not install the DC system . It may have to wait until next Winter…

Now, to the actual woodworking. I try to help people, whenever possible, to learn how to make inlaid dovetails with a router jig. But some time ago I struggled for several days, until I perfected it. THAT was THE key! Without trying it, I would never have gotten good at it.

So, yes, I know the meaning of chop! chop! chop! And I am thankful that I can set aside the time to do it.

My main message is this: I could have memorized, I could have had dreams about them, and actually mumbled something in my sleep related to “tails”. This would have been cause for concern to my wife, for sure. But I never would have been able to cut the dovetails on a jig without trying it over and over, until perfected, IN the shop. And I cannot cut dovetails by hand, because I have not gone chop! chop! chop! with the proper hand tools. I know I will in the near future. You will get a chance to read about my lousy attempts on my blog. I just don’t enjoy doing them by hand, period. Not yet, anyway.

The bottom line, now that I have rambled long enough: Yes, it is *crucial* to spend time in the shop, if I am to make something I am proud to display. But it IS ALSO OK to not achieve perfection, and to make things that are not masterpieces, but that are *functional*. I still remember all those years on a tight budget; cannot forget those.

How to distill all this? Maybe as follows: We are all different – it would be boring if we weren’t. But the fact remains that we still must get in the shop to make stuff if we want to apply what we watch, what we read, what we talk about on the Internet, on the phone, etc. While *doing* is important to me, it may not be to the next guy. And that is fine with me. But many of us are doing it, although, in my case, I really *should* be doing it more.

The difference, I think, boils down to how much time we can all afford to dedicate to our wonderful craft.

Oooopppss… Someone pushed me off the Pepsi box!

I apologize for the double post. It was late at night and I was tired after a long trip and I felt compelled to weigh in on the discussion. Please feel free to remove one of my double entries!

Keep up the good work!

David

A very interesting thread developing! I know woodworkers are a passionate and opinionated lot so this will have many enlightening view points expressed.

I think Neil’s comment has been misunderstood. The Internet is a marvelous wonder. For the woodworker, hobbyist and pro alike, it is a great tool for relaxation, reference and research augmenting our personal libraries of books, magazines and DVDs. We are truly fortunate for the pros like Neil who take time out of their professional lives to teach with no remuneration. Woodworkers are blessed in this age of instant cyber communication to develop woodworking social friendships and mentoring that would otherwise not be possible.

Ultimately, the more you build and experience wood and the feel of a tool in your hand the more you will learn. This is no criticism to surfing the Internet for a design or technique, watching or listening to a podcast, reading a book or magazine, or watching instructional DVDs. These activities really serve to stimulate the mind and encourage the execution of a project in the shop. Every woodworker has experienced that moment of enlightenment when the hands on practicality of repetition and practice eventually yield to the mastery of a skill.

There are many fine sites adding to the woodworking experience. I wonder how many woodworkers Neil has sparked an interest in furniture design, efficiency in the shop, flat panel veneering or to take on the challenge of curved bent lamination vacuum pressing. Consider how many woodworkers Matt has lowered the intimidation level for picking up, tuning or refurnishing a hand plane.

An interesting experiment to follow is the Internet classroom forum project underway on The Rough Cut Show. With the guidance of Thomas MacDonald (aka T-Chisel) and North Benett Street School student Eli Cleveland, the forum is collectively building a “Crazy Leg Federal Table”. The sole purpose of this project, as Thomas points out, “is strictly a learning tool for making cool Federal Style embellishments”. I believe the Federal Table project is a groundbreaking woodworking experiment representing an exciting melding of teaching and practical learning delivered by the reach of the Internet.

So, the phrase “less type type, more chop chop” might not be such bad advice after all!

I think you have a very stimulating conversation underway. Knowing woodworkers tend to be opinionated (not a bad thing!), I suspect this will become a very interesting string with widely varying viewpoints.

I think Neil’s comment was misunderstood. The Internet is a marvelous wonder. For the woodworker, hobbyist and pro alike, it is a great tool for relaxation, reference and research augmenting our personal libraries of books, magazines and DVDs. We are truly fortunate for the pros like Neil who take time out of their professional lives to teach with no remuneration. Woodworkers are really blessed in this day and age of instant cyber communication to develop not only woodworking social friendships but mentoring as well that would otherwise not be possible.

Ultimately, the more you build and experience wood and feel of a tool in your hand the more you will learn. This is no criticism to surfing the Internet for a design or technique, watching or listening to a podcast, reading a book or magazine, or watching instructional DVDs. These activities really serve to stimulate the mind and encourage the hands to execute a project in the shop. Every woodworker has experienced that moment of enlightenment when the hands on practicality of repetition and practice eventually yield to the mastery of a skill, something difficult at best to achieve in an arm chair or at a computer desk.

There are many fine sites adding to the woodworking experience. I wonder how many woodworkers Neil has sparked an interest in furniture design, efficiency in the shop, flat panel veneering or to take on the challenge of curved bent lamination vacuum pressing. Consider how many woodworkers Matt has lowered the intimidation level for picking up or refurnishing a hand plane.

An interesting experiment to follow is the Internet classroom forum project underway on The Rough Cut Show. With the guidance of Thomas MacDonald (aka T-Chisel) and North Benett Street School student Eli Cleveland, the forum is collectively building a “Crazy Leg Federal Table”. The sole purpose of this project, as Thomas points out, “is strictly a learning tool for making cool Federal Style embellishments”. I believe the Federal Table project is a groundbreaking woodworking experiment representing an exciting melding of teaching and practical learning delivered by the reach of the Internet.

So, the phrase “less type type, more chop chop” might not be such bad advice after all!

I’d like to offer an alternate definition to separate Pro and Hobbyist woodworkers, building on the ideas in the podcast. You are a “Pro Woodworker” if your primary objective for working with wood is NOT to further your tool inventory. Anyone else is a hobbyist.

Definitions like this are supposed to be applied only when someone is in a gray area – not when somebody, by anyone’s reasonable definition, falls squarely in either camp (e.g. if you earn a salary by working wood, or conversely if you have never been paid for any single piece you made).

To me, this blog entry is very exciting. It explains what I have wondered about for a while: The Hobbyists’ fussing over their workshop and plot out workshop improvements rather than building stuff (myself included). It also explains why few Pros are hand tool nuts. But admittedly, by the logic of my argument, my workshop should be a lot neater.

If I may be blasphemous, I think Neil is on the wrong track. The means to the end is “build, build, build” – only if your goal is to further your skills, earn a living, and/or end up with lots to show for your time. If you just want to surf the Internet or read 1980s back issues of FWW, that should be OK too, if that makes you happy and happiness is your objective.

I guess (bringing my argument to the extreme), can you call someone who does not ever finish a single piece of furniture a “woodworker” at all? Probably not if the definition is “a person who works with wood.” That person might be called a “woodworking enthusiast” instead. What about if you build one piece a year? What if you get a kick out of “fine woodworking” but mostly do construction or home improvement type work?

As usual, I’m not sure if my comments adds to the consensus or confusion. Actually I’m pretty sure it just adds to the confusion, but what the heck.

Dave, again, really great post. You always manage to hit topics that bring discussion. Even though I’m a hobbiest and plan to stay that way until I have a good portfolio built, I love that there are pros like Neil that do teach efficiency and building around your tooling. I have no desire to build sidewalk style pieces. When professionals see my work and
wonder how I did this or admire a design, I’ll be getting closer to where I want to be. Admittedly, I’m green (only a strong construction background), but I’m passionate about design and “perfection”.

……….that’s the point, you’ll never know it’s the perfect shop (to you) unless your working it. That means:

Matt:

beginners and everyone else should be thinking more about skill building. Once you’ve established the basic skills, the work flow just comes.

to add to Matt’s thought…..as your skill-set expands by building, your shop evolves ie: learning a new technique, needing a different assembly area, new tooling, longer extension cords, new tool storage but you only know this by working your shop which means building stuff……….then you’ve proven your statement,…. that there is no such thing as a “perfect” shop.

Take Vic for instance he has a solid basic layout for his new shop, but he really won’t know how well his layout performs until he’s pushing material, assembling, and works the floor space………..he probably spent hours figuring out his work flow, but the best thing he did was to leave himself with future options by loading up on electrical outlets.

Anyway…..build-build-build……….Neil

I agree with what you said to some extent; I know I’m always changing things around in a never-ending quest for better efficiency. But I also think hobbyists change up their shops simply because it’s fun. Putting together a shop is a big part of the hobby. For some folks, it IS the hobby. That’s why we spend so much time researching shop design, as well.

These two ideas aren’t mutually exclusive. The challenge of creating the “perfect” and “most efficient” shop is what is so much fun. And then we can show it off on the internet forums. The irony is, though, that there is no such thing as a “perfect” shop.

Dave

It’s me again…sorry for double dipping on the comments, but I was thinking about the idea of why hobbyist seem to be always changing up their shops (especially since I’m a self admitted shop changer-upper).

I think it has a lot to do with the hobbyist not understanding the difference between speed and efficiency. Both are two very different creatures, but in an era of 1/2 hour furniture construction (that’s about how long it takes our favorite TV woodworkers to build anything and finish them by hand too) we assume that the only way to be as good, is to constantly play with our work stations in the hopes it will improve our work flow.

Instead, as Neil has pointed out, beginners and everyone else should be thinking more about skill building. Once you’ve established the basic skills, the work flow just comes.